Yet another post from the drafts archive that I pulled and made myself finally finish, sort of.
I saw this in a forum I snoop around sometimes a few months ago:
I think women and men sometimes reject members of the opposite sex because they are valuing the wrong qualities, and not appreciating the right qualities. People often wait to get married for a very long time, because they are searching for the perfect man or woman who will not only be extremely good looking, but also charming, witty, wealthy, and morally perfect. Ok...this is just a BIT exaggerated , but people do value the wrong things too often. I don't know how many times I have heard people say, "We just don't have chemistry" or "I'm just not attracted." Well, I would say, do you have a good reason to not be attracted? If [your] only excuse is that he or she is shorter than you, or he or she is not as charismatic as you would like, then maybe those are shallow reasons for rejecting someone. Also, we should be attracted to our future spouses, but I think that if a person has good character, then why shouldn't we be attracted to their character? I have found in the past, that the most average and normal looking people can become absolutely beautiful/handsome if they have good character.This is a sentiment I hear repeated over and over in the Christian community. “Look at their character! You’ll be attracted to their beautiful character.”
And sure, it seems harmless and sound enough, but where and when are emotions ever allowed?
Oh, that’s right, they’re not.
Christianity is all about denying oneself. That’s all fine and dandy when it means not being just plain selfish, and loving your neighbor as yourself, but it’s become extremely unhealthy in so many ways.
We’re taught to deny ourselves real happiness.
The problem, we’re told, is that our definition of happiness is wrong. We don’t have the right feelings. Our feelings are wrong (and need to be re-interpreted and redefined by the "biblical" authorities). Our desires are wrong, simply because they are our own desires.
Personal happiness can never be a good thing when you’re supposed to be in constant denial.
Happiness is too worldly. It’s too fleshly.
(And abusers can't control it. If you have a sense of self, and of happiness outside of their rules, what do they have?)
I hate that all our desires are supposedly evil. Our wants and needs and cravings are just dismissed as “fleshly" -- this system of thought is so detrimental, and just plain wrong. I won’t get into the biblical aspect of it all, because I don’t even want to talk about it. I'm over it.
[I know I won’t convince anyone who wants to live in constant discontent that those feelings are not sin. You can’t force someone who is drinking poison to stop drinking the poison. If they want it, if they believe it’s good, they’ll drink it no matter what you do or say; no matter how much you care.]
Where am I going with this?
Christians, so many times, are told that they should prefer a certain person because he/she possess certain character traits. You know, the ones on the list.
But what if you’re just not attracted to them?
Oh that’s right, “it’s an excuse,” says the guy from the post. “A shallow excuse.”
To me, it’s the classic “nice guys finish last” complaint with a twist, and even more guilt attached.
I remember when I was 14 and on myspace there were a few guys who would post pouty things about how nice guys finish last. They wait around, they're kind and respectful and dutiful, and then the girl... goes for someone else! How could she! He is the NICE guy. He has the good character traits. He is honest and loving and everything she needs, right? She just likes bad boys. That must be it. Why doesn't she understand?
Even then, it annoyed me.
(There are two sides to this, where the girls are stupid about it, too, but I’m gonna start with the guys.)
I feel like guys so often feel like, “Well, look. I did all the right things. I read my Bible. I’m a LEADER. I’m loving. I hold open the doors. Why doesn’t she like me??”
And, I can understand that. It’s hard when you want someone who just doesn’t… want you. But I’m talking about something different.
Christian guys, well -- let me zero in on Christian guys who believe in the courtship model (and most likely patriarchy, and are probably homeschooled), feel like they should be able to prove themselves to dad by showing their resume and impressive characteristics and accomplishments, and the girl should just automatically love him. Not that I have any experience with this… cough.
But why is it one party’s duty to find a way to fall for a person? The guy who posted this thing, what was he talking about? It sounds like when one person is into the other, the second party needs to be the one to look at the character traits and try to become attracted to the first party. You follow me?
Why? It’s not fair.
For me, I need a “click.” I need that spark. I’ve felt it before; enough to know that that’s what I need. A connection. Where your souls just… feel it. And just an attraction, plain and simple.
There has to be a combination of fitting character and wonderful, compatible personality.
I gather that you're supposed to disregard personality almost completely.
Everything the poster from that forum and countless others advocate is against everything I just wrote.
You can’t just have that. You can’t just feel happy, or desire that feeling that you just belong with someone.
It's selfish, it's wrong, it's worldly like the movies, they say.
If the person reads their Bible, if their character is sparkly, if they talk about God a lot-- then you’re just shallow if you don’t want that.
And I don’t want to hear the spiel about, “Sure! Love is a good thing!” or “Yes, love comes.” Or attraction comes, or whatever.
Like the guy above wrote: “We should be attracted to our future spouses, BUT…”
The BUT is the huge part. In the end it’s: Who cares whether you like the guy or not? Just get together, because that’s how it should be.
Settle.
Oh, I forgot, there were a few links talking about that exact issue: Settling.
They (people like the poster) say that everyone is being too picky and feels like they’re settling if they don’t have those feelings and attractions I was talking about.
I definitely call that settling.
Marriage has evolved. That’s another issue with this whole thing. People don’t have to get married any more. It used to be that women needed husbands in order to even have a roof over their heads. Someone had to provide for them.
Things have changed.
And so often, people don’t want to accept that.
They think we need to live life based on a model.
Some people pick the Victorian era, some people pick prairie times, some people pick Bible times.
But guess what?
We don’t live in those times.
Situations are different.
LIFE is different.
The other huge issue is that people want to use the stories and accounts in the Bible as instruction, when that’s not what it was meant for. I can’t believe I’m even daring to touch on this, because I’m sure this merits its own post.
But, news flash, everyone: The Bible was written as documentation of what was happening then. What God was doing in those times. Parts of it are accounts, parts of it are letters to specific people or groups.
What I’m saying is: you can’t take a verse and say that everyone has to get married and a woman shouldn’t live on her own or have a job for herself.
So the times have changed. Marriage has evolved.
Charlotte doesn’t have to settle for Mr. Collins if she doesn’t want to.
But the notion of “settling” is also sinful, apparently.
This also should probably be a whole post of its own, but I’m gonna continue to plow ahead.
Here’s the link to the article that the poster of the gem above referenced:
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001784.cfm
The writer opens with this quote:
“My advice is this: Settle! That's right. Don't worry about passion or intense connection.... Based on my observations, in fact, settling will probably make you happier in the long run, since many of those who marry with great expectations become more disillusioned with each passing year.
Whenever I make the case for settling, people look at me with creased brows of disapproval or frowns of disappointment.... It's not only politically incorrect to get behind settling, it's downright un-American. Our culture tells us to keep our eyes on the prize ... and the theme of holding out for true love ... permeates our collective mentality.”
It came from an piece she was reading “written by an apparently non-Christian, successful, early-40s, single professional woman who had recently experienced an epiphany of sorts.”
“In lamenting their common lack of romantic prospects, it occurred to the women that each of them had had decent guys interested in marrying them at some point but had turned them down in the hope of landing "The One," "Mr. Right," or some other term connoting the perfect man as they individually conceived of him. The had all refused to "settle" and were not pleased with the results of that strategy — thus the above advice.”
So many things here.
I’m gonna get personal.
I’ve had my fair share of guys that have been into me.
That is why my sisters (jokingly) never let me (half-jokingly) lament being single. Because, honestly, it is my choice. I could have “settled” in ways, but I’ve decided not to.
There are guys who maybe coulda (maybe sure, later things might change, who knows?) been right, but I just didn’t feel it. I couldn’t do it.
I’m supposed to regret that later in life if I stay single.
I do not think that I will. (I might regret some other things. Which I feel like also writing about later.)
Life isn’t a game for me, where I just find someone acceptable. Settle down, have the house, have the kids, have that life, just to have it. No thank you. I want it all to be so real, and natural.
I don’t feel that I have unattainable expectations. They’re rather simple, really.
I will write more about that article, because there is so much I’d like to dig into.
Actually, I think it's time to wrap up. Now.
Haha, geez, I'm so disjointed in these posts. I'm disappointed in myself that I fail to have good endings.
But if I don't just put it out there, I'd never get it perfect and I'd never say anything at all.
This is me just talking.
Anyway, coming up:
- More thoughts on settling
- The flip side of this-- girls demanding that guys settle
- Maybe my relationship regrets...? Too personal, probably. Haha.
- A post titled "Nice Guys Finish Last Because They Have a Terrible Sense of Humor."
I'm kidding.
Great post! I shudder to think of what my life would have been like if I had just settled. I'm glad I didn't!
ReplyDeleteThank you!
Delete“They wait around, they're kind and respectful and dutiful, and then the girl... goes for someone else! How could she! He is the NICE guy. He has the good character traits. He is honest and loving and everything she needs, right? She just likes bad boys. That must be it. Why doesn't she understand?”
ReplyDeleteI believe that very often, these “nice” guys deceive themselves too. They see competitors in the worst possible light (bad guys), and remember only the good in themselves. And they often fail to be nice to whatever part of the girl’s psyche is most important to her – a sense of humor for one girl, a desire to become an engineer for another, a love of beauty and art for a third. They cannot be nice to that, because they are simply clueless. The like the part they see in the girl, but not what she really is.
And in a world where you don’t have to marry, I’d say marrying a man who would suppress the good and beautiful God placed in you is like burying your talents.
Right on, Retha.
DeleteSome of these guys just end up feeling so entitled, or extremely slighted, because they believe that they have measured up in all the "right" ways.
And that is exactly part of it. They like part of the girl, but maybe don't know the whole of the girl, and what she actually needs.
I think sometimes, on the more extreme ends (or maybe it's more the norm), the guys just completely forget the personhood of the girl.
I agree 100% that settling now a days is just suppressing the you that God created. It's a tragedy.
Having been taught from a young age that they are superior to gullible and weak women, the young patriarchs I have met had a very strong sense of entitlement. They strut around as if to say "look at how Godly I am". Such a young man expects the young woman he chooses to court to swoon over him because he has such a great, Godly character. When a young women in that culture still has a mind of her own and spurns the young patriarch because he is such a prig, he assumes that this weak, gullible woman prefers a "bad" man over him.
ReplyDeleteExactly. All too common.
DeleteComing from a guy, I'd say you're generally right, though I can sympathize with the initial author's critique on some shallow issues. I'm not the tallest guy (5'9"~) and it stings when I hear about the height issue. Probably pride or something of the sort :) .
ReplyDeleteNow I never grew up in patriarchy or any of that garbage (though I had my own baggage) so I can't relate on the codewords for 'character' but I figure it all has to do with attraction. For me, I've been single for awhile because I'd like a thinking lady with a heart for Christ. However, I also have superficial characteristics (like green eyes) that I'm willing to overlook for deeper character.
I understand the spark too, sometimes it just don't click.
However, even though I've been through bouts of depression, I'll never understand the mopey 'last guys finish last' line. I think I come off a little as a 'bad boy' sometimes, but anytime you take a box checking approach to real, living relationships, it results in death. Being a Disciple of Christ Jesus is not a moral, legal exercise in self-righteousness but sacrifice.
Anyway, thought you had some good ideas,
Cal
Thanks for your perspective, Cal!
DeleteI think that's just it-- you can't have a formula or list for real life relationships of any sort. Romantic ones, friendships, parent-child, what have you. It doesn't succeed like that.
I think the OP has a mix of some valid and some questionable ideals. I do tend to get nervous when I hear a couple describe their courtship/marriage (and I don't mean "courtship" in the homeschooley loaded sense) in terms of, "We just weren't attracted to one another at all but we went ahead and got married because we knew God wanted us to". That just has warning flags waving all over it. Check back in 20 years or so and see how that one is doing.
ReplyDeleteOTOH, I think that as human beings it is possible that we can miss elements of a person that would make them a very good catch as a mate by not giving them adequate consideration. Maybe it's due to some physical characteristic (you wanted blonde hair and they're brunette). Physical attributes are at the mercy of age, and circumstance anyway. Maybe it's due to a quirky or unique personality that takes a little effort to navigate. Maybe it's because the person didn't make a great first impression or were excessively nervous and needed to just be drawn out or encouraged a little. In any case, I agree, you don't want to approach marriage in terms of settling for a person of "good character" whose personality completely rubs you the wrong way or whom you can't stand to look at just because because you didn't want to end up alone.
At the same time, "spark" may start a fire but diligent care and fuel is what keeps it lit. It seems like every time I use one of these goofy trigger operated lighters to start my fire pit I have to pull the trigger several times just to get it started and sometimes the flame doesn't catch in the first try. I have to keep lighting several spots, fan the flame a little bit and with some diligence, before you know it, I've got a raging inferno going. Maybe what that guy was getting at was that you shouldn't reject a candle just because it isn't a blowtorch (unless you're trying to solder pipes, of course. :) ) With a little care, what looked like a small flame at first blush can grow into something mighty.
Blessings,
Jim K.
OTOH, I think that as human beings it is possible that we can miss elements of a person that would make them a very good catch as a mate by not giving them adequate consideration.
DeleteI completely agree. What I'm more talking about is as it gets further down the road. You've already given it a chance and a fair amount of consideration, but it just doesn't work for you. One of the things that the OP said would be a shallow reason is if "he or she is not as charismatic as you would like." Like, that's a big deal! It's a personality thing, and some people need that.
Maybe it's due to some physical characteristic (you wanted blonde hair and they're brunette). Physical attributes are at the mercy of age, and circumstance anyway.
Yep, I agree. You can't have a picture of a physical ideal. Well, I mean, you can, but it'll be your loss when the person of your dreams personality and character wise doesn't look like the picture you've conjured up.
Maybe it's due to a quirky or unique personality that takes a little effort to navigate. Maybe it's because the person didn't make a great first impression or were excessively nervous and needed to just be drawn out or encouraged a little.
Oh, first impressions. haha, such a difficult thing. I've had people tell me what their first impressions of me were, and I'm always like, "Wait, what? Where did that come from?" And they're like, "I dunno, but now I know it's not like that." haha the latest and greatest was the girl who works for me now that said she was nervous when they transferred me to be her manager because I reminded her of "the type of girl who used to throw her in trash cans in high school." I was like, "... Thank you for sharing..."
haha, anyyyway, I do agree with all of what you're saying about giving things a fair shot.
At the same time though, that should be for you. It's gonna be your loss if you don't. You don't have to give any one a chance (in a romantic relationship) just because they want you to. Am I making sense? Sometimes I ramble.
Thanks again for your thoughts, Jim. I always love reading your stuff.
Oh, and this sense of "but I am a nice guy, she must like bad guys" is truly not limited to the patriarchy mindset. Everybody believe they are good guys.
ReplyDeleteEven Al Capone described himself as: "I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures, helping them to have a good time, and all I get is abuse."
But the wannabe patriarch has something else, besides that everyone else may not regard him as Mr. Nice Guy like he does, that he needs to realize. He may think: “She isn't everything I want personality-wise, but I’ll settle.” Then he wonders: “Why can she not do the same? Why can’t she settle for me, who isn't everything she want personality-wise?”
Well, Mr. Wannabe Patriarch, the difference is that if she marries you, she will have the entire Patriarchy movement telling her to leave her personality and become what you want. You “settle” for something that is forced to move in your direction. On the other hand, nobody in the movement will tell the man to become what the woman want. As such, you simply cannot blame her for being way more choosy.
Oh, I know very well that's it's not limited to patriarchy. (So lame. Haha.)
DeleteI do think that "nice guys finish last" becomes a lot more sinister when coupled with the patriarchy or even just Christian mentality. At that point it becomes a guilt trip with spiritual manipulation attached.
And, like you're saying, it's even worse for a girl to "settle" in that frame of mind. There is no half way. She has to meet him.
I knew you were talking about Boundless! ;)
ReplyDeleteAlso, I totally agree with you. There seems to be a lot of entitlement among guys who act like any girl they want should be interested in them because of XYZ quality. Oddly enough, it often seems like girls are brought up either on the idea of fairy tale love or unrequited love (either the price sweeps you off your feet or you pine away alone).
I'm all for giving people a chance (my fiance is not the physical type or personality I ever saw myself with), but in addition to his great, I guess you'd say "moral" qualities - hardworking, smart, responsible, strong faith and similar life goals to mine - we also had that spark of sincerely caring for each and madly loving other which is vitally important. I don't see how anyone can argue that that's insignificant.
Sometimes, they argue that "it comes." It's not impossible, but it doesn't have to be a rule to count on love and deep, genuine caring and a connection to come "eventually."
DeleteI'm glad you've found that. =)
Amy,
ReplyDeleteVery intriguing post. You nailed my mindset when I was the "nice guy" back in my teen years. You are very perceptive.
I read somewhere that anger stems from unfulfilled expectations. I have found this to be very accurate.
It's no wonder so many Patriarchy leaders are angry, especially after you understand how they are taught to evaluate and choose (or rather, accept their fathers choice) a husband or wife.
Great post. I love seeing more people commenting!
Blessings,
Micah
Oh, are you taking about the time that girl gave you
Delete8 6 7 5 3 0 niii-ine
as her number?
hahaha.
Now I'm gonna have that song stuck in my head all day again.
Anyway, thanks, Micah!
I think there are separate kinds of settling and separate kinds of "too picky" going on here.
DeleteI know a lot of women in their late 30s and early 40s who reject decent men practically on sight for petty reasons because they are looking for some mythical perfect man. One friend of mine quite literally never goes on a second date. Her first dates don't like the right television shows or are wearing the wrong shoes or socks or she doesn't think they are "the one" because they don't gaze in her eyes lovingly...My answers (in order) there are DVRs to solve the tv problem, marry him and you can pick out better shoes or socks, and gazing lovingly is just not going to happen on a set-up first date.
Then there are the Christian ones who reject men because they are allegedly missing some sort of very important character quality that you really can't pick out on a first date.
As to settling...secular women seem to settle for whoever the hell happens to be there. I have friends who married Mr. Here Right Now because they perceived it was "time" for them to get married. Two are divorced and two are in terrible marriages. One of them described her life this way recently "I love my daughters, enjoy my job, and most days I can get along with my husband". Christian women settle, as you write about, for the guy with all the right qualities that they don't really click with and they get along, but they aren't particularly happy. My friends who did this have picture perfect families sitting in a row at church and everyone assumes they are the happiest people on earth. Most of them seem terribly bored and resigned.
I'm glad I didn't settle in either way. I didn't get married until I was past 35. But we are insanely well matched and ridiculously happy with each other. That matters.
Another Amy.
The arranged marriages I know of from other cultures (Indian and Iranian) who have happy successful marriages have one thing in common- major SPARK. In all three cases, the girls are presented with the guy, and if she has no spark, the deal does not proceed any further. These cultures use professional matchmakers to find multiple suitable partners, and then let the paring down depend on the people involved, bride and groom.
ReplyDeleteGodly guys need to also be smart about it. Good grooming, fitness, a sense of style, and a deep respect for and interest in winning your woman's approval are all very important in arranged marriage cultures, at least in my limited experience.
As usual, fundamentalists can't get the most fundamental aspects of human happiness figured out. They need a new name.
I know it's almost a year after you wrote this, but I needed this validation so badly right now. THANK YOU!!!
ReplyDeleteI've had some very painful incidents in the past with friends getting angry at me when I didn't want to date them.
The guilt and pain has been at times devastating. Been a while since I've had problems with this, but still haunted by the ruined friendships.
Yea, I'd say, another thing, settling goes both ways. The 'nice guys' that later turned out to not be so nice, tended to have women in their lives who would have wanted them, but they rejected them. It was all very hypocritical.